Grazing Grass Podcast : Sharing Stories of Regenerative Ag

Unlock the secrets to regenerative farming success with Cedric Shannon from Weathertop Farm in Virginia. Listen as Cedric recounts transforming 54 acres of potential housing development land into a thriving regenerative livestock operation. Inspired by Joel Salatin, Cedric shares how he and his wife, Sarah, started their farm journey with limited resources, beginning with chickens and hogs, and progressively integrating cattle and sheep. Through continuous learning and building a supportive community, Cedric offers insights into overcoming challenges and achieving sustainable farming success.

Explore the nuances of raising rabbits and chickens for profit as Cedric shares his experiences and insights. Discover the logistical challenges and rewarding solutions like hoop houses for rabbit hutches and the innovative use of rabbit manure to enhance poultry productivity. Cedric discusses the market dynamics and cultural preferences for rabbit meat, providing a thoughtful reflection on the balance between passion and practicality in small-scale farming. From family farming growth to the legacy of their operation, hear about the reinvestment in skills development and how their farm internship program has paved paths for aspiring regenerative farmers.

Cedric guides us through holistic grazing management and flexible farm infrastructure strategies that are vital for thriving with limited capital. Learn about the benefits of rotational grazing and how different livestock species can synergistically enrich soil nutrients, creating a sustainable farming ecosystem. Practical advice on managing farm operations—like using electric netting over permanent fencing and the importance of movable structures—highlights the resourcefulness required to succeed in agriculture. With Cedric's insights, start your farming journey with creativity and adaptability, and become part of the sustainable farming community.

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What is Grazing Grass Podcast : Sharing Stories of Regenerative Ag?

The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.

This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?

Welcome to the grazing
grass podcast episode 143.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Don't get ahead of your learning curve.

We always talk about
getting ahead of our market.

We always talk ahead about all, but
don't get ahead of your learning curves

Cal: You're listening to the
grazing grass, podcast, sharing

information and stories of
grass-based livestock production

utilizing regenerative practices.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage.

You're growing more than grass.

You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle

thrive in their environment.

You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity

and reducing your operating costs.

You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.

The grazing management
decisions you make today.

impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.

That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials

of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow

techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.

In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.

Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,

but a legacy that lasts.

Learn more on their website at noble.

org slash grazing.

It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.

On today's show.

We have Cedric Shannon of Weathertop Farm.

Him and his wife, Sarah, have a
farm in Virginia, which they raise.

A few different species on,
they have sheep, cattle,

hogs, chickens, and turkeys.

Everything rotationally grazed, he
makes extensive use of electric netting.

And he also has a podcast.

Can your beans do that?

It's a wonderful episode.

We're going to talk about his beginnings,
but we're gonna talk a lot about getting

started when you don't have much money.

That's our overgrazing topic for today.

And then we run out a little bit of time.

So to get the cattle and sheep in
that's over on our bonus segment

for our grazing grass insiders.

For 10 seconds about the farm, my
cool season perennials are growing.

They got some.

Some much needed rain and, um,
the weather's not been too bad.

Not too warm.

Not too cool.

For 10 seconds about podcasts.

On our show notes, we have a link
to a listeners' feedback form.

We'd love to get your feedback about
the podcast and how we can improve.

So if you've got some time,
click on that link and fill out a

form for us, we'd appreciate it.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Cedric, we want to welcome you

to the Grazing Grass podcast.

We're excited you're here today.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Thanks, Cal.

It's great to be here.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: To get
started, can you tell us a little bit

about yourself and your operation?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Yeah, so, we moved here in 2003.

It was some land that was getting
all divided, you know, subdivided.

It was going to just turn into
housing and we bought it as a whole.

It was about 54 acres.

My wife and I, we had
five tiny little kids.

There was like nothing here.

We, it was crazy.

It was like the, you know, midlife crisis

type of crazy.

Everyone's was like, you
should not be doing this.

So we really started from scratch.

There was a few buildings, but
they were like a hundred years old.

There was some pastures
left because people had just

thrown some cows on here, but

so we really started with very little.

We had thrown all our capital.

to the land.

And so we started slow and we just
started with this little infrastructure.

You know, we, we were, we'd
read some Joel Salatin.

We'd have visited his farm a little bit.

So we built some chicken tractors.

You know, we started like
with a hundred broilers,

25 hens, a couple hogs, you
know, and I had rabbits too.

So I had brought my stock.

Yeah.

We started very slowly
and the market was there.

We were in a great place here.

We're in Floyd, Virginia.

So we're in the rolling hills, but
there was already a community here

that was doing, they were calling
it sustainable agriculture at

the time, found someone who was actually
doing like pasture poultry, rotational

grazing, and talked to this old codger,
and he was just really nice, and I

asked him if, you know, Would he kind
of be there as a resource when he said,

yes, I told my wife, we can do this.

We can do this.

So they really, it was a couple and they
really helped us out through the years.

I mean, we, we started, we were like,
we didn't have any processing equipment.

So we were taking our birds
over to their place and

processing and we traded
traded work for that.

And so we're really well supported.

But started very, very slow.

The market was there.

So we might've started with 200
broilers the first year or a hundred.

I can't even remember, but you know,
next year was like 500, you know, and

then like 700 and then a thousand.

Right.

So, and then we added other things.

We did ducks for a while.

I had rabbits for a long time, but
they're, So those have fallen away

and in the place we've put in sheep.

We've put in cattle.

We have now access to the
farm right across the road.

So in total, we manage about 200 acres.

Some of that is

woods.

We've got a fair amount of
pasture, but with multiple species.

So we've got just to give you
a sense of scale, we do Well,

we order 6, 000 broilers.

You know how that

goes.

It's 5, 000 in sum by the end.

We have flocks of laying
hens, 600 at a time.

We'll keep two through the winter,
but then we kind of, as one is

phasing out, we'll get another flock.

So anywhere from 1, 200 to
You know, 1800 birds laying.

Then we do turkeys.

We have like about 600
turkeys for Thanksgiving.

So that's our, our poultry there.

And then we do hogs, and we
rotationally graze them as well.

I have listened to a few of your podcasts.

People were dissing on hogs, and I'll,
I'll have a different opinion on that.

They're awesome.

Yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
just a couple weeks ago.

Yeah, what if so it was pretty harsh
on hogs They were not fans of them.

We do have a few that's that's hog base.

So that's that's interesting.

We'll have to get into that Yeah

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So
we do hogs, we farrow, we have about

10 sows, which doesn't sound like a
lot, but when they're each farrowing

twice a year, averaging, you know,
like 9 or 10 hogs, you know, that

can be anywhere from,
you know, 160 to 200.

And it's all direct sale.

So,

So we, you know, finish
out quite a few hogs.

Then we have a, a Katahdin flock
of about 60 maybe, sometimes

a little bit higher use.

And then I'm just, right now at this
point, I'm just bringing in steers.

So I might

bring in like 25 steers a year.

And then keep them for about a year and
a half and then, and then sell them.

So, and we run our sheep and
our, and our beef together.

So we have what they call flerds, right?

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
a herd of flerds.

That gives you a sense of scale.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah.

And, and so we have so much to cover as
I, I took notes as you were saying, all

that so much we want to get through.

But first I wanna go back till you moved
down there and ask you about your rabbits.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Okay.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: you,
you moved rabbits with you

when you moved them down here.

Were you doing any kind of,
were you trying to raise them on

pasture or were they more in the
cage and raising them like a more

conventional system for the rabbits?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So
I had the breeding stock in cages, you

know, raised up with the wire and all

the poop is falling through.

I had ideas.

I was gonna do worms under him,
which never worked very well.

And then we were, and then we were putting
them like, you know, the, after we weaned

them, we would keep them out in the
field and these sort of rabbit tractors.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: We
went through so many iterations of that.

You know, put wire on the corners, put,
you know, some extra bars and, you know, I

know, that Salatin at some point was doing
it where he had lots and lots of slats.

By the time I saw that, it was like,
there's no grass coming through.

So what's

the point?

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yeah.

Yeah, you're not you're not getting
any grass forage consumption there

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Yeah, so then, you know, and they

were still getting out like every
now and then and I had a great dog.

She'd help me catch him
and she wouldn't kill him.

She would help me

catch him.

We'd round him up, but I
was wasting so much time.

And in the end, right, I might have like.

20 rabbits in a tractor, right?

When you can do like 75
broilers in a tractor,

right?

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: True.

Yeah,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
economically, I mean, just time.

I mean, at the beginning I had a
lot of time and I loved rabbits.

I've grown up with rabbits always, and I
love rabbit meat and I had great stock.

Never found stock as good as I did
when I, the stuff I brought here.

And eventually it was just a you
know, we had to cut something

out because it was just taking so much
time because we were like scything

grass for them and like, you know, and,
and you take care of one rabbit, you

know, and she might have 8, 10 babies
as well, but you taking one cage,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
In each cage at a time, whereas I go

out and I can take care of 600 layers

all at once.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So you
just never, you can never get the price

point to make that actually economic item.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Did you find
there was a fair market for rabbit meat?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
There was plenty of a

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: It
was either, Like an older generation,

because, oh, I love rabbit, I grew up
with rabbit, or through the depression,

my grandma made me rabbit,
or a lot of ethnic, so

we're close to a couple bigger towns,
we have well, Roanoke, and then also

Blacksburg is a town that we go to a
lot, that's where Virginia Tech is,

and there's a lot of international people
there, and so they, a lot, you know,

most, most places love rabbit, it's a
little different here, this generation

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, right.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
People used to eat rabbit

all the time here as well,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Yeah, I grew up eating

rabbit.

We went through some phases as I
was growing up, different times when

rabbit was the main protein we had.

Now I say that we always had
beef, so always had beef.

But rabbit replaced chicken for
a number of times because we, we

started raising some rabbits and
rabbits multiply like rabbits.

And we, we had way too many.

They're one of my favorite animals.

I have them off and on.

And I just really struggle with it.

Right now, I don't have any I told my
wife the other day I want to get a few

more And she's like, well, are you sure?

And you know, i'm always them when I
want to but but I know the the issues

I would love to do them in a, in a
rabbit tractor or something, but I just

look at it and I'm like, that is that
much more work I'm creating for myself

when I don't need to create more work.

So it's that love, hate
relationship with it.

Not so much the rabbits, but just
trying to figure out that system.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: yeah.

One of the best things about rabbits,
though, actually, we started, we put

some, a bunch of our, our rabbit hutches
in a, we have sort of a poor man's hoop

house, right?

So, we have like a PVC, 20 foot
PVC, and we just put them, you know,

and so it's like 12 feet wide, 96
long, and it's about 7 feet high.

And then we had our, our rabbit hutches
in there and we have shade cloth over.

And over the winter, we, we hook
up our hen houses to it so our hens

can get into those hoop houses.

So we don't do lights and they still,
they get all that heat from the hoop

houses and they just lay all through the

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: But
when we had the rabbits under there, it

was like even extra like mobonus for them.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
They just loved it.

They would go through all
the manure and the bugs

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
they were happy as could be.

So there's a lot of pluses to rabbits, you

know, and if I was doing more of a
homestead and not a business, I would

get rabbits in the blink of an eye.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I I do have a couple
disadvantages for Rabbit here.

I can't convince my wife to eat it, and,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
She hasn't had it made by my wife.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: and, and
she ref, she refuses to, well,

actually, if, if I fix it for
her, she's much closer eating it.

She doesn't wanna be in the
processing portion of it at all.

And, and to say she has came a long way.

She grew up basically in town.

in Hawaii.

So this is all pretty foreign to her.

So she, she's came a long ways, you
know, not having the meat come to

her on a, on a styrofoam tray wrapped
in plastic was a, a shock for her.

So yeah, of course it's
been over 20 years.

So another 20 years, I
may have her convinced.

We'll see.

Yeah.

Right.

So I always think, I know we had an
episode where a lady She started with

rabbits and then it's expanded way
beyond that, but I love rabbits as a, a

potential protein source for people with
limited land or just getting started.

It's, it's great there.

And a lot of times.

We don't want to talk about rabbit because
it kind of, it's, it's, I hate to say

the stepchild because I think that's just
the wrong connotation for stepchildren.

But, but sometimes it's not
looked upon all, all that greatly.

So,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
well, I grew up, I grew up overseas

in Africa and, and places like
that where agriculture, you

know, is, is less business and
much more, you know, subsistence

rabbits can be like,
Just essential, right?

I mean,

in all kinds of climates,

right?

But like, they, they so synergistic
with garden and other animals and, you

know, so like, it's hands down one of
the best animals, just not for business.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: So, so with
the business in mind, you all, once

you moved, you took some rabbits down
there, but you quickly found some other

species that worked a little bit better.

So let's, so first you
got chickens, I believe.

Tell us a little bit about your beginning
process with chickens and how that went.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: so,
I basically built two pens, you know,

I sort of took a Salaton's model and

sort of tweaked it, you know,
I'm a carpenter, so I tweaked

it in ways that made sense for
me and we did around, right?

And already the couple that I
mentioned before, the brights,

they, they were doing broilers

and they had, you know, I don't
know how many they were up to,

maybe a thousand at that point.

It was just, just the two of them.

And they said, well, just come do your
broilers and we'll see if we can sell it.

And we just sold everything.

So then I bought a hundred more
and we were able to get two in that

season just because of that, right?

So it was just very minimal infrastructure
and just like, you know, chicken

tractor, especially back then.

Costed very little.

I could just buy the wood, and I could,
I even bought aluminum back there, back

then, so that they would be lighter,
and it was, like, affordable.

Then we, I built a little chicken coop
for the hens, and it's, like, this one

that my, my, my dad had, like, backyard
poultry stuff, and found one there,

and I, I literally, like, I didn't
have a tractor, I didn't have a truck.

We moved here in a Grand
Caravan, Dodge Caravan.

And I pulled this chicken that
could house a hundred birds, and

I pulled this little chicken thing
on skids with my Dodge Caravan

around the pasture.

And, and since we're telling kind
of embarrassing stories about the

beginning, we would move our hogs around.

And this is hilarious, just thinking
about how far we've come, right?

I got two hogs, but I
wanted to move them, right?

The whole thing is I wanted to

move them.

So there was this shed
that had fallen down.

And so it was this triangle of the roof.

So I just cut that and we put it out on
the pasture and they'd be under that.

And then when we wanted to move it, I
literally said, Hey, I'd get my brother

or somebody around here and we'd go under
it and we'd put it on our shoulders.

And we would lift it up

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: and
we would walk it like a hundred feet.

So, so yeah, I mean, we started with
nothing and so, I mean, it's, it's

pretty funny to think about it, but
you know, you do what you got to do.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: my grandpa
his favorite saying was always poor

people have poor ways and and I
Well, I hauled some goats off in my

my little homemade Goat towed on the
back of my pickup just the other day.

I, I actually have a really
nice one, but my dad and nephew

decide they needed to borrow it.

I'm like, I gotta sell some goats.

So I, I made one out of
a panel and stuff, wired.

I was telling the people at the,
at the place where I, I actually

bought some goats and I said,
yeah, poor people's got poor ways.

It'll work

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Yeah,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: So
you expanded into all those

species chickens, layers, hogs.

You started out really small scale.

Did you just grow as the consumer
as you found the market, or did

you just grow as you had money,
or how was the growth process?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
it was all together.

Right.

So the great thing about
broilers is you, You get your

investment back within two months,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And we absolutely had to have that.

We did work off farm.

My wife and I took turns working off
farm for the first like five years.

So it wasn't until after that, that
we cinched our belt and said, we're

going to try to do this full time.

But yeah, no, I mean, you know, I, I think
actually the one thing you didn't mention

is, is that also the learning curve,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: right.

So like, yeah, we didn't have the money,
but we also needed to do our market.

We also needed to grow our skills, how
good we were doing this without like,

Oh, I'm going to buy 50 hogs and do it.

And then just completely, you know,
we didn't have sort of the cushion

to to do that.

So, the market always seemed to be there.

And sometimes we'd have to work to
find it or to get the people there.

But always in the end, we ended up
always selling everything, you know,

and it helped, you know, and then,
you know, we've always been really

high quality, even though we may
be poor and have poor ways, we've

always been really high quality.

Just the taste, right?

People are just like,

Oh, this tastes, I don't, I can't
believe, is this really chicken?

Like, I

haven't, I guess I haven't
eaten chicken all my life.

And that spoke for itself, you

know, so it's all been
kind of word of mouth.

We've never like, we don't do
anything like shipping, whatever.

But like, now we have hundreds
of families that we, for a lot of

them, we are their only meat source.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And yeah, no, it just has grown.

And then in 2012, we also branched out to
the human species, had our first intern.

And that was one of the
things we were hearing.

We were going to conferences and stuff
was, you know, one of the biggest

needs is a lot of people want to
get into regenerative agriculture,

but they don't have an entry level.

Sort of way to start.

People are looking for managers,
which I too, I get that.

I'm looking for a manager to help me, you

know, with the load, but we kept
hearing this need of like people want

to get into it, but they don't know,
especially with animal husbandry.

So we started an intern program.

And so right now we do have a
manager and we do about three

or four interns on top of

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes,
so you have quite the crew because

you mentioned earlier I think you
had five little kids when you moved,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
we have five kids too,

but they've

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: and they've
had, oh, have they all left home?

Because I'm thinking they're, that
turned into quite the workforce.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
They were, I mean, I mean,

they were also very active, you

know, but they all know
how to do everything on the

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Right, right.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Unfortunately I, I, the,

the sustainability aspect of
getting your kids to take over.

I haven't learned that one yet.

They all want to go off
and do their own thing.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Totally understandable.

And so, yeah, actually, now I'm
into the stage of being a grandpa.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh,

yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: and
they're coming back to the farm for that.

So they're here right

now for a few months and we get
to hang out with our grandkid

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: that

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And I have another one on the way.

So, yeah.

Yes, they've always been a big part of
it, but no one's taken over anything like

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I, I complained to my dad.

My wife and I have, we have five kids
and we'll be out there doing stuff.

And I'm like, dad, I'm the
young one here providing labor.

There should be another generation
out here doing the hard stuff.

Now we do have, I do have a nephew that
is helping us quite often, which has

been really nice because that means.

I don't have to run and do everything.

I'm like, Hey Michael, go do that.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Yeah, it is the Amish say you

invest in your kids for the first
seven years and then you get your

investment back the next seven

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Well, my siblings ran from the
farm as quickly as they could.

So I was, I was the one that stuck around
here for, for my generation, but the

next generation, yeah, we'll have to see.

So when you started processing,
you started with chickens, did you,

have you always used Cornish cross
or have you tried anything else?

Wow,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
we started with Cornish Cross.

They just, yeah, sure they have a bad
mortality rate, but that turned around.

We tried every now and then,
some Freedom Rangers, or just,

and, They just can't compete.

You just can't get as many rounds in.

They just don't grow as much.

And we put it to a taste test.

We, we were

giving all our customers like
sort of blind taste tests.

We would do these like samples and they,
people couldn't tell the difference.

And they, it wasn't like, Oh my
goodness, the Cornish cross isn't as

good.

They were getting enough grass and
bugs and sunshine that it was doing

what it needed to do nutritionally

to make it taste so good.

So we've just Every time we've tried a
little something like that, we're going

back just because economically, again, if
I was homesteading, very different story,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh,

right.

But you've got to, you've got
to manage this as a business.

And I

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
still are probably our biggest

cash crop, so to speak.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yeah, I do.

I, I would say summarizing everyone
I've talked to, majority of the

people go with the Cornish cross.

It's just hard to compete with that.

And in fact, when we get off here
today, I'm running to a post office.

I've got some Cornish
cross chicks to pick up.

I've been, I.

I pastured, I raised some, I don't
know, like 10 years ago, and, and my

wife didn't like them as much as she
thought she would, so we didn't do it

anymore but I took them somewhere to
get processed In the processing, etc.

So I just bought a small
batch to try it again.

I'm going to do it all in
house and we'll see how it

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
well, you know, even if you don't make

money on them, they are unbelievable.

You know, cyclers of nutrients.

So to

jumpstart a pasture,

like we got access to this pasture
right across from the road four

years ago from us, and there's
nothing like broilers to just kind of

jumpstart things, wake things up,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: completely agree.

I agree.

Yeah.

We had broiler houses.

Years ago, we put in broiler
houses and grew for a company.

So we had 80, 90, 000 broilers,
four houses, you know, that

complete conventional system,
which worked great for money flow.

And the other thing it worked great
for was we spread that litter on our

pastures and it'll make rocks grow grass.

And you can do the same thing
with a chicken tractor and

raising some pastured poultry.

So you use Cornish cross
for your, your broilers.

What are you using for your hens?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
It's the red sex link,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, okay.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: which
I think, you know, it's some F5, 000.

I don't know what it is, but
you know, originally it was

like a roast Rhode Island red

rooster with a,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
I know what you mean.

Yeah.

yeah,

But

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
they're fantastic birds.

They're unbelievable, you
know, really bad mothers, but

they

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: that's
not what they're bred for.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Forage, and they will

lay you beautiful eggs.

And they're, I mean, they're great birds.

So, yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: They're
a brown egg layer, correct?

So you're just, you're
selling all brown eggs.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Yeah, we get this thing by the time

they've been laying over a year.

They get whiter and

whiter.

So we do sell some white

eggs that were

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: you
have a nice variety in there

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
There's a variety, yes.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Do you
get any feedback from consumers

that they'd like some a different
color egg or anything in there?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
At Easter.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, okay.

Yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
But otherwise, no.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Well, I grew up.

We, we raised, we always
had Rhode Island Reds.

So we always had brown eggs.

My wife doesn't understand why I'm
fascinated with brown eggs because

she's like, just white eggs, just
white eggs, but it's a brown eggs.

But I know pot, it seems pretty
popular in the homestead community

right now for the green or blue eggs.

So I was just wondering if you got any.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and yeah, yeah.

No, I mean I have in my life,
but that's not for, not for the

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Yeah, right, right.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: then you
started turkeys at the time, or you

started turkeys pretty early in your

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Yeah.

very early.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
You're growing one

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Broad breasted

white.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: So,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
They're, they're wonderful foragers.

They're like, I

mean, they get a hard rap.

One time you know, Barbara Kingsolver came
through and she was, you know, promoting

her book, Animal, Vegetable, Miracle,
and she was harp, harping on the turkeys.

I went up and talked to her afterwards.

I said, you can't do that.

Come to my farm.

I'll show you.

They're great foragers.

They're so happy.

They, they're much
funner than the broilers.

And they're just much more
active and they forage.

I mean they, they graze,

right?

That's the thing people don't realize,
like hogs and poultry and all.

They're like grazing.

It's not just like a
pick here and pick there.

It's like you can, there's a line from

when the fence was to the next day.

Right?

So, Anyways, she kind of backed off
a little bit on her being quite so

harsh on the turkeys after that.

And I even read her book
and she had taken some of

that out.

So that was kind of cool, but
they're great, you know, and we've

done some we've done some heritage
breeds before, but again, you'd

have to like quadruple your price.

To make it worth it.

And that's just doesn't make sense.

So let the, let the other people
worry about for us, we just

worry about the heritage breeds,
you know, more power to them.

But as a business

is nothing compared to
the broad breasted whites.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yes.

That, that's good to know
because I, I've thrown around the

idea of raising a few turkeys.

I don't think I really want to do it as
a business, but I wouldn't mind raising

a few because my wife gets tired of
me talking about how I want my meat to

be cleaner, my food made from scratch.

So she gets over, she, she gets
tired of my little speech on that.

Are you growing one set of
turkeys a year and are you

shooting for processing October?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So we.

We do this, so we have 600 out there,
and we start processing, actually end

of October, that's like next week, we
start processing, we'll do like 100.

So those will be the birds
that are like 10 12 pounds.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And then like a week or 10 days

later, we'll do another group

and those will be 12, 15, kind of, right?

So, and then, and then we'll do three
days, like right at around Thanksgiving.

And those are the 20, 20 plus birds.

So we get the different sizes that way.

You just have to freeze it if you want.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: you
know, so that, so it's all one flock.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, okay.

Yeah.

And you all have, you have a processing
facility set up so you all can do it right

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
We've grown up a little bit, built my

own processing, bought my equipment.

It was an investment, you

know, and but you know, it was,
we, We processed at the Bright's, I

think, probably seven or eight years.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Before we were like, okay, we have

a little bit of extra capital here.

We can, you know, build a shed with cronky
pad by the equipment, which is not cheap

at all.

So we have a, we have a
scalder and we have a plucker

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
rest is just done by hand.

So,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Is there in Virginia?

Are you, you have some limits to
how many you can process on farm?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
yeah, we get exemption, but

it's very, very reasonable.

It's wonderful,

right?

So we if you do under 1000,
they don't care what you do.

You just can't sell it, resell,
or you can't go across state

lines, but you can even sell it to
family, friends, whoever you want.

As soon as you get over like a
thousand, it's like a thousand

to twenty thousand units,

right?

Which, like a turkey is three
units, a chicken is one, whatever,

but we've never even gotten close
to the twenty thousand units.

But at that point, We can't go across
state lines, we can't do wholesale,

but we can do everything else.

So what we do is we'll,
Thursday we'll kill about 300.

We do rounds of 300.

So we'll kill, it's usually not
300 because some of them have died,

Right, So, so, we'll do that and then that
afternoon we might sell like 150 of them.

People will come pick
them up that afternoon.

Then we'll put about a hundred
in the, in the walk in cooler

for the next day to cut up

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and we'll cut up into pieces and

that's all under the exemption.

It's perfectly fine.

So we get your breast, you get
your legs, you get, you know,

we'll cut up about a hundred
of those and then we might have

like 40 we save fresh and then I
take fresh on Saturday to market.

So during broiler season, almost every
Saturday, I've got fresh whole birds and

fresh cuts and people are spoiled rotten.

So yeah, so that's how we, we do that.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Now, you mentioned 300.

Is that how many fit in each tractor?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Well, it's, it's half a brooder,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Okay.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: and
it's two tractors no, four tractors, four

chicken tractors, right, about 75 each,
or I, I have developed my own houses,

and so it's two of these other houses that
I actually pull by the tractor, because

as I get older, I don't like to pull them.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Right, right.

I, I understand.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
get a lot of interns to pull them,

but I always, I like the tractors,
everything's built on skids, everything's

moved all the time to fresh pasture.

And then 300's a good amount for us
to process, cause we gotta get all

the chores done, then we kill, then we
gotta clean up, cause we sell from the

processing shed where we just killed.

So we gotta clean up, we try to be
done by like noon or noon thirty.

And then everyone, we eat lunch
together and volunteers will come

and do this and they love it.

They like work hard and
then we give them this great

lunch

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and then by two o'clock, two to four,

people are showing up to pick up their

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

So do you is that

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
is just a good

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: is that like
they have pre ordered them or they

just you're saying two or four show up?

We will have fresh

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
No, no we set our dates at

the beginning of the year.

Like in March, we send out a newsletter,
say here's all our processing dates.

So all our poultry dates, all
our broiler and our turkey dates

and people just sign up and then
we close it out when it gets too

full and then people.

I'm crying.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and that's a good problem for you to

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
It's a good problem,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah.

Well, let's let's move off of poultry
and talk some about your hogs.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: You said
you have 10 sows, and I know a lot of

times when I talk to people, they're
not doing the farrowing and finishing.

A few people I've talked
to are doing both.

But you've got 10 sows, and
you go farrow to finish.

First question, I'm gonna ask
right off so it's out of the way.

What breeds are you working with?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
So we started out with Tamworth,

right?

My mentor Larry Bright
was working with Tamworth.

Great.

And I, and I started off just
getting feeder pigs from him.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
them off.

For years and years.

It wasn't until we had grown quite a
bit that he's like, I think it's time.

You have your own sales, you know,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: can
share more and, you know, you know, he's

kind of like my second father and stuff.

So it's great.

And he was pretty solid
Tamworth for a long time, but

I think the breed really has.

It's getting harder and harder to
find because he just brings a boar in.

We're not saving our own

boars.

And so a few years ago, we
started bringing in other blood.

So Berkshire or just, you know,
rock or whatever, you know, you

get this sort of cross, whatever
you can kind of get your hands on.

But again, now, like I'm
all into the epigenetics.

Right, so that's part
of having the sow there.

We, we rotationally graze, they get
a fresh strip of grass every day.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: So you, so you're

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Our hogs graze, and they get a ton of,

right, so if, if mama's doing it, and her
biome's got it all, and the piglets, you

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Right.

They're going to learn from her.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
they learn from her, and they got

the biome going, and so, we have pig,
and we've sold some, you know, some

pigs before, you know, some little
shoats, and people are like, Right.

I thought I didn't, I, they didn't
realize they opened their fence

thinking, Oh, I they'll do their thing.

I'll go feed them.

They'll be interested in the feed.

And then I'll open the fence
and I'll do some work over here.

Well, as soon as they opened
the fence, they left their feet

and started coming to the grass

and they were like, Oh

this is a different breed.

So, right.

So, yeah, and I'll, I'll put a plug
into, I think another player, yeah.

Right.

I'm all into the soil as well.

I'm well sold on the soil being
there as super important and all

that diversity of species and
all the moving hogs are amazing.

I'm going to tell a little story
that I've, I tell a lot, but

I think it's really important.

I think it's really telling.

We had sent the hogs down.

We, we, I mean, we layer, our
pastures, just we get oodles of

different species going, right?

We might get the sheep, the sheep
and the And the steers might go

through there three times, but I'm
also getting the hogs maybe going

twice and the chickens going twice.

Right?

So you just layer and layer.

You can use your land so much more.

So we'd had the this area where the
hogs had been through, through half

of where the sheep were going and
it had just been a month or so ago.

And to me, to my eyes,
the grass looked gorgeous.

The whole thing looked exactly the same.

100 percent of the sheep and cows were
where the hogs had been a month ago.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Ate all that grass first, and

then went over to the other stuff.

So clearly they're cycling something.

The BRX level's gotta be up higher.

There's more nutrients, whatever.

I don't know the science, and I don't,

I don't even need to know the science.

But for me, the science is watching

those, those sheep go, Okay,
this stuff's much better.

And it was like a hundred percent.

My wife and I were just looking like, This
isn't just like, oh, they're favoring it.

It is like a

hundred percent on this

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yes.

Yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Just chowing down and when they're

done with that, they're like,
okay, we'll go over and eat this

other beautiful lush grass that you
couldn't tell the difference at all.

You know, it's just at the perfect
stage, but where the hogs had been,

that's where they wanted to eat.

So something's going on there.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: You know, your
story reminds me and I really hadn't

thought about this in a long time.

When we'd spread those, that chicken
litter from those boiler houses, Where it

was always a darker green and you could
tell where we spread it and a lot of times

we would spread We had to keep track of
where we spread it and we know where it

was or we might leave a gap Accidentally
between a couple loads, but those cattle

wanted to graze Where we had fertilized
where we'd put that broiler lead

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
If you, if you give it enough time.

Yeah

it can't be right away.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah.

Yeah right away.

I don't want to be there.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
yeah, I had, I had hadn't

done this as much with hogs.

I'd done this with the poultry, but
what I, I guess what I would say is

that it's even better with the hogs.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh Yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
prefer where the hogs have been

over where the chickens have

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh Interesting.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
tell you why,

but there's some sort of
synergy going on there.

So yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: how are
you managing shelter for your

hogs with moving them every day?

And how are you managing water?

You

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
So again, we're small, right?

So, our biggest group of
hogs is going to be like 40.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Right, which is a lot of

meat when you think about

it you know, I mean, I hear a lot of
your people on your podcast, they have

5, 000 acres, they have 5, 000 this,
whatever, but it's still a lot to do.

You have 40 hogs in a group, right?

So you had it's all done
with electric netting,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And then our houses.

Everything's on skids,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: and
then I just have these hex bolts, these

half inch hex bolts, and I just throw a
chain around it, and I put my tractor, and

this is a one person job if you need to.

I've done, I've done everything
on my farm one person.

I mean, you can do two
people, it's sometimes nicer

to have quite a few people,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and then I just drag it with a tractor.

Right.

And then I have the waters on skids
and then we have a chain on them.

I go back with the tractor and
I throw that chain on the hitch

and I just pull the water.

And we've been we did get sort of
be when working on putting the I

can't talk the the underground water

where you have the plugins.

And so the more of that we can get
in, in our pastures, you know, so

you're only going to have to need
two or three hoses at the most,

and you can put the water anywhere.

And it was great because
we were at just recently.

We had this wonderful opportunity.

Alan Williams came to Virginia Tech

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yes,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and so I took our whole crew,

my wife and I, and four, four, four
employees here and great, wonderful,

Alan Williams is the best, but one
of the things he stressed was, you

know, to keep changing that water

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: oh

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
he shows his water, like he had, like,

I don't know, a thousand cattle or
something and he's got one trough.

On wheels.

And he's like, you know, it's actually
important for them not to learn,

not to mob the trough and to learn
to, you know, and he's like, and he

was just stressing how important it
was to just keep that water moving.

And one of the things as we've
been putting these lines and we've

gotten some help from like NRCS and

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: oh yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and they're like, Oh, you got to

put in these permanent water things.

And my wife and I have been resisting
these, resisting these because we just

like our waters in a different place

Every time.

they come through.

And we just felt kind of vindicated.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yes!

Yeah!

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And we were like, Oh, yeah, well,

Alan Williams is on our page.

And yeah, so it's just on
skids, and we move it, we

fill it with, you know, and for the
steers, we do have like a float valve.

And so that, but still,
it's not that much.

It's just like 100 gallon tub.

Or we might have two of them out there
and one on so yeah, or the sheep,

it's a 50 gallon because it's a little

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And sheep don't even drink as much,

so anyways, yeah, so it's, I mean,
I guess it's a lot of manual, so

you're using hoses and you're plugging
them in, but like, for us, that

flexibility and the moving, that's keyed

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And so, yeah,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: With your,
your moving, you, you've mentioned

this a little bit earlier, I believe,
that, you know, your cattle and sheep

may go over an area three times,
your hogs may go over a couple times,

and you've got turkeys, you've got
your layers, you've got broilers.

How are you keeping track of where you're
grazing everything, and how are you

moving them through your, your pasture?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
good question.

When we're on top of things,
we do have a grazing chart.

We always get behind,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: you
know, but we through, you know, through

everybody and everyone's got phones.

We sometimes we've even gone
back and looked at pictures.

When did you take that picture?

Oh,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: I,
I love pictures for that.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
It's dated.

Okay.

It's okay.

Because, because we wait.

Especially for the sheep.

We wait 60 days.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
We have developed, so we know we

have, I haven't wormed a sheep
in probably four or five years.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, very nice.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And we might lose one, you know, or

two, maybe a year from, from parasites
very, you know, much, much higher

than anyone who's using Wormers,

much, much better mortality rate, I should

say, so lower and so,
that 60 days is important.

So it's not just the
grass, what stage it's at.

It's also the cycles of, you
know, the barbacole worm and

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Yeah, no, I'm we, so the, we do pay

attention to that when we're at our
best, we're using a grazing chart, we

got it all color coordinated and we got
it all marked out and we do have all

our land sort of parceled out in areas.

So we know where, you know, generally
where they were at what time.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

One thing we haven't talked about your
sheep or cattle yet, but I'm thinking

we may save that for the bonus segment
and we can talk about those more.

Because we've, we spent this whole time
talking about kind of getting started

and starting from scratch with little
capital, little infrastructure, but

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cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: And we're
going to take a little bit deeper dive.

So I wanted to get that in there because
I felt like we kind of spent the whole

episode on that topic, but let's hone
in just a little bit more on that.

Because I feel like so many people's
in that position, just getting started.

How do you get started when you have no
capital or very little capital to, to go?

First off, just getting the farm.

How were you able to get the farm?

Did you all have money saved
up or how did that work?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
That was a community effort.

We went in with my wife's brother
and his wife which he's he was

actually I knew him before I knew her.

He's one of my best friends, right?

And another couple helped
us with like down payment.

And then so, and then we eventually, we
bought them out, but so we've remained

you know, we've remained partners, I
guess, with her brother and, and wife.

And my dad has always sort of
been there financially, you

know, backing me up if we need.

So I've had a lot of support,

family,

and that was how we bought the land.

And then the rest we just
had to generate ourselves.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So one
thing I wanted to just throw out there was

that we never put permanent fencing up.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So
because we're using this electric netting

and poly wire and whatnot, I just have a.

Just temporary posts with one high tensile
wire that goes around the perimeter,

and that's just feeding electricity.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: And
then when I need to, like, I can either

get the fence on the other side of it and
get the, you know, the animals to graze

it, or I can just lift them all up and
I can brush hog it, like, once a year.

So, you know, you don't like come.

I just one of the things we
never sprayed anything right so

spraying like poison ivy or
whatever on the post was just it

was just non negotiable for us.

We've never sprayed fertilizer
or a pesticide you know, any kind

of poisons or anything, right?

So, but that also turns out
to be, I mean, putting in

perimeter fences extraordinarily.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, it is.

It is.

Yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And people are like, well, you're you

know, aren't your netting expensive?

I'm picking it up and moving it, right?

So yes, okay, it's expensive, but
I'm just using it all the time.

And I, the flexibility
is really important.

So, we didn't have to have
that infrastructure and

like, like, Like, if we go into
the sheep or the, the steers, I

don't have a sorting area for them.

I have this thing where if I need to
work the sheep, it takes me, well, with

another person, it takes me about an hour.

I set up some cattle panels.

I set up a couple, like a
guillotine and a sorting thing and

maybe something to weigh.

And then we use the netting
and shoe them into this thing.

And it's built right onto, like,
against, near, like, one of the walls

is the actual house that I pull.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
So it takes like an hour or two to

set up and an hour to take down.

And then we'll work all the sheep.

No, it doesn't take an hour to take down.

It takes like 20 minutes to take down,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah

It's always easier going that way.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Right?

So, but that's like, so I don't have to, I
don't have a big, you know, you can spend.

Tens and tens of thousands

on an area to work your, your animals
and I have never, you know, I have

cattle panel and some, some gates,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: right?

So that's just, and when I want to
get my steers, I mean, our steers

are so used to being worked because
we, we move them twice a day, right?

So they, I'll just set
up some cattle gates.

And I'll just slowly work them
and I'll use the netting and I'll

just put my trailer there and I'll
walk them into the trailer, right?

so just as examples of not having
to have as much infrastructure

as you might think you need to

and Learning more the animal husbandry
part the more, you know, and the more

you can read animals and work with
animals Actually, I think the less

Infrastructure you actually need so

like Every Every building
I have is no bigger.

Like my biggest buildings
are like 20 by 12.

Because I buy these, I buy a 6x6 skid,
20 foot long, and it might be like 12

foot wide, and those are my houses.

And so if I need two or three of
them for my, for my steers and for my

flirds, then I put three of them on,

right?

But they're all very easily
dragged with a tractor and all.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: So, so none of
the, the shade or shelter that you're

giving your animals are permanent.

They're all on these movable
shelters with skids that you're

able to connect to and move.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Yeah, I mean the only exception

would be like the brooders right?

Then the hoop houses in the
winter for three months, the

hens will hook up to them, but their
houses hook up to them, and they

have access to inside the warm hoop
house, and they have access outside.

And if it's not windy, it can be 20
degrees out there, and they're going to go

outside, because they love to be outside.

But

yeah.

otherwise Nothing is permanent.

Everything is, you know, movable
and everything is temporary.

Yeah,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Now,
one thing you mentioned there,

you move them with your tractor.

Were you, were your first structures
all where you can move them?

By hand until you were
able to get a tractor.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
I did mention that, that big that

it was a big one for us because
I couldn't move it by hand.

I could push it a little

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
I moved it by my grand caravan,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

Yeah, you you'd mentioned that earlier.

Yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
And I still have that building.

It's held

up and I still use it.

But I, I move it by tractor, but yeah,
so at first it was just all by hand.

For the first few years
except for that one.

And then yeah, I mean, we got a
tractor like about a year in, we got a

tractor and so then I could start
building things for that stuff.

So,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
and you mentioned a tractor.

Do you use a four wheeler or UTV?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: I
don't this has been a big discussion.

It's extraordinarily expensive.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: are I I've
looked at them I would love to get one and

I'm just like I can't justify the cost.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
So, our ATVs are Subaru Foresters.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: They
have great traction, they have plenty

of space to put, you can actually carry
people, you're protected from the rain,

and they're like, a fourth the price.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So, I
just, I've looked into, I just couldn't,

I just couldn't believe the prices, I
couldn't believe, and you're not, and, and

my Subaru can pull some of those houses.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yeah

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: These,
like, so it's like, what's the point?

Right.

And you can buy one for a few
grand versus like 20 grand.

If you wanted to pull anything, you

know, if you want to
have anything with power.

So yeah, ours are Subaru Foresters.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: I, I do.

I've wondered about that.

I've looked at some older
Jeeps and some other things.

I mean, I have my, my pickup, but
really, to be honest, it's a little.

Overqualified for that and too
much money I spent on that.

I think if I had something a little bit
smaller, just barely do some stuff, it'd

be nice, but I look at those prices and
especially for you TVs, I'm like, Oh man.

Yeah, well, my parents have one and I
use it occasionally, but I hate to use it

every day and put all those hours on it.

On, you, you mentioned about water and
you're getting pipes in ground where

you're able to connect into them.

How did you handle water before
you had the pipes underground?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
So we just, I had when we originally

were, I mean, we built our house
and while we were like setting up

infrastructure, I mean, I guess it
was way before we built our house.

We just, we got in like four hydrants.

Yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh

yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
spread out.

And then, like, literally,
we would have ten hoses

that we

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
because that movie was so important to us,

so we would, we would work with ten
hoses to get to the edge of the fields.

I mean, we were working with less
acreage at the time and it would

just, off those hydrants and hoses.

Yeah, it was so important to

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
that we do that.

So we'd have, like, one
close to each field.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Yeah.

So, so you spend a little bit of
money and got some hydrants close

that you all could work with and
then you utilize a fair number of

garden hoses to get it the last mile.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Four ways.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Yeah, but it works.

It works.

If you want to do it,
you can make it happen.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Absolutely.

Yeah.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: As you think
about someone, since we're kind of

on this topic of starting without
too much and building up, what, what

would you tell someone who's sitting
there thinking, I want to get started?

I know we're going to have the famous four
questions going to be kind of like this,

but it's going to be a little different.

That's thinking, I don't
have money to do anything.

How do they get started?

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Yeah.

I mean, it's not easy, right?

So I, I would say find
an internship, right?

First, get some experience
because you need experience.

And it's not just right.

It's not just experience of
having some techniques or

knowing how much to feed away.

Right?

One of the things.

I'm actually think that what we
do as much as anything else has

changed the way people think.

They might not realize it, right?

But like, how do you, if you're not
used to working outdoors, if you're

not used to working with animals, and
if you're not used to working with

multiple variables all the time, and
diplomatic sort of tussling, and you

know, how do you strategize, how do you
make judgments, how do you, all these

things, like, You really don't know.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
not even know how to work hard, right?

So like,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yes.

I, I see that way too often is
that work hard is a little bit

tougher than I thought it would be.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
yeah, I mean people just haven't

done a lot of manual labor and the
learning skills of the hands is

like learning to get into that flow.

It's something that people,
you just have to do it, right?

So like we're changing the way you
think as much as anything else.

And I think that's worth going onto
a farm and learning how they do it.

But also I don't care
how structured a farm is.

You're going to have those days where.

You got to make some judgment calls

and something's gone wrong and you got
to figure out, you know, and you also

have to figure out what's important,
what follows what, you know, you

know, and so that's crazy important.

Now, it is a huge barrier.

Land is a huge barrier.

So I know there's a lot of
people who are talking about,

you know, using leased land.

If you have that experience,
then you can look.

I know how to, I know how
to rotationally graze.

Animals.

I can make your fields better,

right?

There are people who are
able to, to sell that.

So land access is huge, obviously,
but the experience is also more

than I think people realize.

And we change the way people think, right?

I'm I write a lot.

I do a little bit of podcasting.

I've written a manuscript and everything.

And one of the things I try to
get across is that we start,

we think of things as nouns.

In a, in a way that it's
not really right, right?

Like I was a philosophy major.

So we kind of believe
that we describe things.

Well, chairs got four legs and a seat

in the back and, you know,
you sit on it, right?

And you can't look at soil that way.

So it's not really a thing, right?

It's a thing, maybe in
the way that economy is.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: oh,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Right.

Like exactly define my, like, can you tell
me how many legs does an economy have?

Right.

I mean, you can make up stuff, but
it's all going to be metaphors.

It's just thing in action.

Right.

And so it's like these verbs.

And so like looking at systems, looking
at soil, looking at all these different

things, it's all, it's the interactions
are actually much more important.

Right.

And the more interaction and
suddenly diversity then makes sense.

Right.

Because if you have more players
in the game, you have more

interactions, it becomes exponential.

Right?

And if, if it's the interactions
that's creating soil, if it's the

interaction between the rycol, ryzol,
fungi, and the, and the roots, it's

the interactions between the manure
and the urine and the soil, the

interactions between the grasping, all
these different actions, they compound.

That's a word that Alan uses.

I've used synergy and I've used
different words like that, but he uses

compounding effects, which I like.

It's a

great word.

Suddenly it's not really a noun.

Right.

What's going on is, is an
economy is, it's much more verby.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yes.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: So
you're, you, that's, and that's an art.

Right.

So I guess my whole point I'm
getting to is you teach people.

It's like teaching people like
Kung Fu or something, right?

You can't just, Oh, I learned
my techniques on YouTube

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh,

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
and I did this and I know exactly

how to do it because you're gonna
go out there and Nature and life is

just gonna throw you a left hook,

right?

And so you just you got
to do it a thousand times

And as you do it, you gotta learn, and
you, and you, it's an art form, and

so it's much more, it's knowledge of
the body, it's knowledge of intuition,

it's knowledge as much as it is head
knowledge, and that can only be learned

hands on, that can only be learned by
doing it, by working with someone who's

got experience, you know, like, I'm
starting to be that guy who's got more

experience, but for me, it was working
with, you know, this older couple,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
particularly Larry, who was my

mentor, just, you know, just watched
and learned, and, you know, A lot

of osmosis, you know, and you know,
now and then I pick his brain just

working side by side for him, you know,
just that's that's super valuable.

So that's kind of what our
internship is trying to do.

And it can frustrate a lot of people.

I just want to know how
many buckets to feed.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Well, today was colder.

Yesterday was this, or you know, or
they, what, and you read the animals.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: right.

Yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
do you read animals?

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: But as you think
about you You don't know the questions

to ask until you're in the middle of it.

Sure, you know some questions to ask, but
do you know the real questions to ask?

And until you, you've got into it,
you may not know those questions.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Oh, you absolutely

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: I, I like
to think I'm fairly intelligent, and

at times I think I'm fairly dumb.

So either way, but we got a hair sheep.

It's been a number of years ago and I
thought I, I took a course on sheep.

I've been around all kinds
of animals my whole life.

I thought this is just another species.

It won't be any problem.

There was, I hate to admit how
steep that learning curve was.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: It's,
yeah, I've still, I'm still learning

about sheep.

I'm still,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: still
learning on everything and

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
yeah, absolutely.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: there.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906: Well,
it's like, it's like kung fu, right?

You,

you always can get better

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, the more
you know, the more you don't know.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
Exactly.

Exactly.

And I think people who can get into that
state of, you know, well, one thing we

do is that we do lunch with our interns

Monday through Friday.

We provide lunch.

We sit down and I'm like, look, I'm
available here for a whole hour.

Get rid of your cell phones.

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906:
Oh, yeah, right first.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
I'm right here.

And sometimes people
take advantage of that.

And sometimes that's some of the best
learning goes on there because you know,

I, I can be an academic and I love a lot
of that, but when it's not in the context

of, you know, here's an environment, you
go out and you work with your hands and

you do stuff, and then you have a question
it's in this context of actually doing the

whole thing, then you can learn the art.

Right?

And they can get, at first they get
really frustrated in my answers because

it's always, I've always got a caveat and

a prelude and this and it
depends and all this, right?

But they slowly learn and they start,
okay, here are some of the, here's

the things that were important,
here's the principles, whatever.

And so I really think that a lot of
what you do, and I think this is what

agriculture, we need to get in touch,
it changes the way your synapses

work, changes the way you think.

And.

And you start thinking things less like
individual nouns that have, you know,

properties of red and, you know, and
weighs this much, but what's it doing?

How is it interacting?

Right?

So, Oh, well, we just had this over here.

So now would it be good to have this here?

You know, like the verbiness of it,
you know, what, what they're doing,

how they're interacting, that becomes
actually more important than, you know,

All their physical traits, so to speak,

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: Oh, yeah.

cedric-shannon_1_10-25-2024_100906:
really affecting the way they think.

And then if you can take that
mentality, that's actually going to

be a powerful tool when you start.

Yourself and I don't think people I think
they underestimate that because I know

plenty of people who I I went to Salton
You know and I learned all this stuff

and now I start and they don't last, you
know And they they're not making good

judgment calls and and sometimes that's
just is it's a hard thing to succeed at

Sometimes it just life hits you and you
can't necessarily blame the person But

sometimes it's just they haven't made good
judgment calls because they've jumped in

too quick thought they knew everything

they thought they were black belt already,

you know, and

cal_1_10-25-2024_090906: yeah.

right.

I my wife says I jump in the deep end
too often, so I completely understand.

It's time for us to transition
to the famous four questions

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